Basic Questions on Seeburg 3wa and wb2mp3

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This topic contains 30 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  bobwiley 2 weeks, 1 day ago.

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  • #46762

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Hi,

    Working on getting my wallbox to work properly and was hoping for some hints to help me trouble shoot.

    Here’s what it it currently doing. If I give it a credit it automatically starts cycling without me pushing in numbers or letters to make a selection and does not stop unless I manually move to subtract credit reel which it will then stop at the end of that cycle. I can push buttons down when there is no credit and they release like they are supposed to. If I give it a credit it automatically starts cycling and i can push buttons down mid cycle to get it them to stay down shortly on their own. And then it will release the selection at the end of the cycle. So far I’ve gotten 3 different songs to play through the wallbox2mp3 but have not been able to replicate those song to play again when I press the corresponding letters and numbers.

     

    So my wallbox2mp3 questions are:

    1. Does the wallbox2mp3 immediately play a song when it gets the signal, or is there a delay of a “x” seconds before a song starts?

    2. How long will the wallbox2mp3 accept a signal? I’m wondering if my stepper unit is slow on the revolutions per minute is it will still interpret the signal or if the wallbox have to be within the factory specs to read the song selection signal.

    3. Are there led indicators stating when its detected a signal and is playing it, or a signal is detected but can’t decipher what song its supposed to be?

     

    Wallbox questions:

    I’m going to try to work on this and double check I have everything cleaned and adjusted properly, but I don’t have a lot of time to work on it. The only repair guy I know says he can only work on it when he has a compatible jukebox in his shop to try it with, and so far he doesn’t have any coming in. Every now and then I see used untested parts, like the credit unit for sale. Is it worth throwing money at parts or are these things pretty bullet proof if there isn’t any physical sign of damage? What is the common electro mechanical thing that goes/breaks on Seeburg wallboxes? I just noticed that shipping  relatively is expensive and most wallboxes in my price range are untested, so didn’t know if one comes along I’d be smart grabbing it to see it it works, or at least swap out the troubled/suspect parts and hope to cobble together a working one.

    Thanks!

     

    #46764

    scudie
    Participant

    Hi Bobwiley

    What model 3wa have you got ?

    Do you have a manual for it? If not there is one in the support section on this site.

    I think if it was me I would start by looking at why the wiper arm starts &  continues to turn without making a selection, when you cancell the credit does the arm stop in the home, non credit position ?

    when a credit is established the motor should move the wiper arm to the credit position and then stop, there are two motor start switches  one is triggered by the letter buttons & the other by Numbers  check that both of these switches are open when the wiper arm is in the credit position ie with the power off manually advance wiper arm until the mechanism lever drops over the first step on the cam. Check that the arm is in its correct position.

    Cheeers Scudie

    #46766

    scudie
    Participant

    Good Evening Bobwiley

    just had chance to look at & read again your queries from earlier today, my time was a little limited earlier!

    As far as I have seen wallbox’s that don’t work  are normally down to the fact that someone has either removed something possibly  to repair another box. Or something is damaged because of careless handling while it has been removed from its location poor storage or shipping.  The electromechanical type of wallbox’s are normally very robustly built and I have only had one instance where I have had to buy a replacement component because I could not figure a way of repairing it.

    I certainly would not start buying any replacement parts untill it has been established  that your machine does indeed require them.

    In my oppinion the most complicated part of my 3wa which from memory is a V3WAD I think , is the credit unit which on mine is  unplugable but apparently on some versions of the 3wa is hard wired.

    The wb2mp3 unit should start to play the chosen selection within a couple of seconds of the wiper arm returning to either the rest/home position or if further credits have been established the credit position.

    The wb2mp3 recieves a train of ground/ earth pulses as the wiper arm passes over the contacts on the circular board, with the wb2mp3 there is no requirement to have a stepper connected,  the stepper would have originally been inside the jukebox and would have converted the pulse sent by the wallbox into a selection for the tormat memory unit.

    There is certainly led’s mounted to the wb2mp3 board, in the manual it describes how one of them can be used to diagnose certain faults.

    Hope this helps

    Scudie

     

    #46768

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Hey Scudie,

    Thanks for the replies!

    I got a chance to work on it and made some progress. Its stamped stating it’s a D 3WA. It has a plug in dual pricing unit DPU-10.

    If I start the wallbox with no credits the motor carryover will go to the standby position and I can freely push down the numbers and letters and they do not latch.  Carryover switches  U V W will be open, closed, open (just as the manual says). Adding change will correctly trigger the DPU-10 to add credits. The credit light will go on and the notched cam wheel will rotate to the credit position and so will the motor carryover wiper arm. The arm looks like it is the the proper “v” shape. I can press and lock in numbers and letters (and release them by pressing a different button) just like I should. Depressing a number and letter will cause the signal switch to momentarily close and the corresponding letter and number motor starting switches will stay closed. The carryover switch (UVW) will have all contacts open in the credit position. If in the credit position I press down a selection and I manually lift the carryover switch so the U V W switch is closed, open, closed just like the manual, the wallbox will cycle a full revolution and play a selection (not necessarily the one I picked!), reset the numbers and letters and return to the credit position. I can’t get it to subtract a credit yet. If in the credit position and the DPU 10 is in the credit position and I don’t make a selection and the motor starting switches are open and i trigger the carryover switches to the cycling position it will cycle and return to the credit position and not play a song. If the motor carryover wiper switches are in the credit position and I put the DPU-10 in the no credit position, the credit lights will go out and it won’t cycle. Same deal if the motor carryover wiper switches are in the standby mode, it won’t cycle unless a credit is added like it is supposed to.

    I know the credit cancel switches I need to look at in detail and it’s hard to access them. But I notice the firm metal bracing leads that don’t have contacts on them are touching a different leaf than they are mounted to. I’m guessing they got bent wrong and maybe are shorting a signal, hence why the credits arent canceling.

    What I’m really stumped on is why it won’t auto cycle once I make a selection… I’m going to try to make a video to maybe help show what’s going on.

     

    #46771

    scudie
    Participant

    Hi Bobwiley

    Good to hear that you have made progress, had a bit of a look at the manual looks like the motor gets its ground through contact E of the credit cancel switch.

    I can’t believe how rusty I am in the respect of the 3wA, I will try to find an hour to grab my 3wa and get it connected so I can refresh myself on its workings.

    Cheers Scudie

    #46772

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Okay, some dumb questions.

    First, it shouldn’t send the signal until the buttons are pressed and then the motor carryover wiper arm brushes across the contacts, correct? I’ve had a few instances where the wallbox2mp3 starts playing a song just by me pressing some buttons and it hasn’t cycled yet. Guessing it’s just a “leaky” signal of electrical interference. I need to get the proper type of wire and gauge yet (currently using speaker wire from the wallbox to the wallbox2mp3).

    2nd, for me to solve the issue of random songs playing. First I should make sure I have the right gauge wire and length for the signal to the wallbox2mp3.  2nd I  should have the the contacts clean for the motor carryover. Then 3rd the contacts for the numbers and letters. I did some initial cleaning back when I first got it. For the numbers and letters, what6the best way to clean them out, should I try to take each row out, or is spraying with electrical contact spray solvent/cleaner an appropriate thing to do?

     

    I’m just stumped on this motor cycling thing. I feel like I’m so close. Once I make the selection of a number and letter (in either order, number or letter first, then the other) in the credit position it should just automatically cycle right? Is there a step or switch I’m missing or not thinking of? When the number and letter motor starting switches are closed, what are they supposed to signal to get the motor carryover arm to move. If the motor starting switches are supposed to trigger the carryover switches U VW to go closed open closed, I don’t get how, as it’s a mechanical bar that lifts the carryover switches via a cam.

     

     

     

    #46773

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Thanks scudie!

    #46774

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Okay, here’s a link to some pictures. I’ve also linked a video showing it in action. https://imgur.com/a/uFNiqHJ

     

    Here’s the video https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bIBkhsFR_H3_abMOU4Z6kEwWN8qB_zRk/view?usp=drivesdk

     

     

    #46776

    scudie
    Participant

    Hi Bobwiley

    First it should not play any music until after the wiper arm has made a complete sweep of the contact board. When you configured the sd card did you tick any of the random play options? If you did I would format and configure again without random, in my experience it can make the system unstable.

    I don’t think the gauge of wire will be the cause of your problems, I am currently using house telephone wire for a couple of wallbox’s that are at least a metre away from the Wb2mp3 unit.

    Stripping the selection switches is quite an involved job I have done it and cleaned each part of the switches in a strong detergent with an old toothbrush & if they are badly tarnished given them a rub with sore Duraglit metal polish.

    However I doubt that the selection switches are at the route of your problem, you could check there operation with a multimeter that has either ohms or a continuity function, I think I am correct in saying that,

    with no selection buttons pressed

    one probe connected to the chassis and the other on the first  of the selection contacts (V)  on the circular disc you should have continuity, work your way around the contacts through to A  & then the numbers  1 through to ten, you should have continuity on them all.

    If then V was selected with the button the V contact should have continuity but all the other letters should be open circuit ie no continuity.

    If V is released by pressing say L contacts V through to & including L should have continuity to ground / chassis but K to A again should be open circuit.

    Hope this helps

    Scudie.

     

     

     

    #46777

    scudie
    Participant

    Hi Bobwiley

    Have just watched your video, the signal shorting switch should be open when the buttons are released & when latched Ie pressed in.

    It should close as the button is pressed approximately 1/2 way in.

    Are you sure that when you establish a credit that it is enough for a selection ?

    Say for instance a nickel registers one credit but you need 2 credits to make a selection? A dime would automatically register 2 credits and a quarter 6 credits.

    Cheers Scudie

    #47071

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Hi Scudie, thanks for your replies (and all your posts!). I got some time to work on it today. My first goal is to get it to play the correct songs. Then after that solve the credit issue.

     

    Here’s how I’m testing it. First, in the credit position, I have the multimeter probe on the blue terminal “signal” (by the 24v and Com terminals) and the other probe on the contact dot on the disc. With no buttons down all the #’s (1-0) and all the letters (A-v) read zero. The brass plate and wiper arm read one.

    When “a” is pressed the “a” AND “b” contact each read zero. “C” thru “v” all read one.

     

    When “b” is pressed “a” thru “c” each read zero and “d” thru “v” read one.

     

    When “c” is pressed “a” thru “d” read zero and “e” thru “v” read one.

    When “d” is pressed “a” thru “e” read zero and “f” thru “v” read one.

     

    So in short:

    A (down)

    ABC-V

    001-1

     

    B down

    ABCD-V

    0001-1

     

    C down

    ABCDE-V

    00001-1

     

    D Down

    ABCDEF-V

    000001-1

     

    For the numbers

     

    If “1” is pressed, the “1” reads zero and “2” thru “0” read one.

     

    If “2” is pressed, “1” and “2” read zero and “3” thru “0” read one.

     

    So its seems the letters are off by one or the numbers are off by one following the pattern. I.e., is “a” is pressed it should read zero and “b” thru “v” should read one. I’ll hopefully have an hour to look at it again tomorrow.

     

    I’ll keep ya’ll posted on what I find out!

    #47072

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Okay. Did some reading and to my understanding the letter and number readings are right, “A” should get two pulses, so “a” and “b” should read zero…seems odd to me. I’ll have to sleep on it and think some more. I’ll be testing all the numbers and letters tomorrow.  Hopefully I’m doing it right!

    #47074

    scudie
    Participant

    Good Morning Bob

    If it was me the first thing I would want to sort out is why when 2 or more credits are established that the wiper arm on the selection plate cycles without any selection being made.

    If your wallbox is set up same as  mine each selection that is made uses 2 credits, a quarter should register 6 credits Ie 3 selections, a dime would give 2 credits so one selection, a nickel only one credit so no selection should be possible until another nickel is deposited giving another credit so a total of 2 credits  & 1 selection possible.

    When 2 or more credits are established the wiper arm should only move from the stand by position to the credit position and then stop until both a number and a letter have been selected. If no more credits are established at the end of the cycle the wiper arm should return and stop at the standby position,  if 2 or more credits remain after a selection cycle the wiper arm should stop in the credit position.

    Page 9 of the manual details how to check and adjust as  nesseccary several multi blade switches that are either opened by the action of the motor driven cam or by the pressing of the selection switches.

    This would be where I would start by checking each of these switches as per the instructions on page 9.

    Cheers Scudie

    #47075

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Thanks Scudie. I was actually trying to avoid dealing with the credit issue because I’m just having a heck of a time getting good access to those credit leaf switches. I’m just not a delicate person, last time I dissambled stuff to get to those switches it seemed like I still coul6get a good angle to measure gaps, and my adjustings to the leafs were ineffective and sloppy at best! =/ i’ll hopefully get some time alone to work on it soon.

    In the meantime I counted the RPM of the wiper arm and I’m just shy of the minimum at 16 rpm. What are you guys using for lubricant and where do I add the drops?

    #47076

    scudie
    Participant

    Hi Bobwiley

    I use 3 in one oil, to lube anything that moves, the motor on one of my Seeburgs was really  gummed up not sure if it was a 3w1 or a 3wa  I remember removing the motor completely disassembling it as much as I could used plenty of WD 40 on it to initially get things moving and soften the solidified oil / grease. Reassembled it using the 3in 1 oil.

    Apparantly they make a 3in 1 that is specifically for motors, I think it has a blue and white tin rather than the multi purpose oil which is in a red & white tin, have only seen the motor oil for sale in the States.

    Where in the world are you?

    I found a small dentist type mirror aproximately 20mm in diameter very useful for inspecting the gaps on the Carry over & the Credit cancel switch’s

    Cheers Scudie

    Cheers Scudie

    #47077

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Thanks for the info Scudie! I’m in the US. I have 3 in 1 oil, so I’ll give that a go.

     

    Here’s what i have going so far today.

    In the Credit Position, I have moved the DPU-10 to register enough credits for a selection. (The coin switches advance it properly.) I make my selection “E” “5”. E and 5 respectively close their motor starting switches (R & P) and remain closed. When depressing E and 5 they each momentarily close the Y Signal Shorting Switch, otherwise the Y Signal Switch is open if there are no selections or if the selections are locked down. (I have a D-3WA with a serial #64219. I don’t think I have a YY Signal Switch, as I don’t have that bank of switches).

    The Carryover Switch UVW are all open and exceed the minimum gap.

     

    So here’s what I don’t get in the flow chart, if  I select E 5, nothing happens. If I then manually close V on the Carryover Switch, the motor starts and properly plays my selection and stops just like its supposed to. It obviously doesn’t subtract a credit (because I haven’t tackled that yet), but everything seems to work like it should. It’s sending songs to the wallbox2mp3, and I can make multiple selections and its sending a signal, so I can have a cue of songs… The hiccup is if I close switch V on the Carryover Switch without making a selection the motor will cycle through and it will send a song (always the same song) to the Wallbox2mp3. So I need to get the list of songs I have on the SD card and see what signal it is sending. One would think If no selection is made it wouldn’t send any pulses… in anycase, my head scratcher is, other than me needing to putz with the credit cancel switch, should this be working? Like, basically I have this on free play, so the motor should start irregardless?

     

    I know, i know, tackle the Credit Cancel Switch bank… =p

    I’ll keep ya’ll posted on progress. I feel like I’m so close and its gonna be something obvious that I’m missing in all of this! Have a geeat day!

     

     

     

    #47078

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Okie dokie, so something isn’t right when I make my selections. A – V each have a song they send to the wallbox2mp3. If I press “A” and then a number, it will always play Twinkle Little Star. Even if I don’t press a number and select A and manually cycle the wiper arm, it will play Twinkle Little Star. So I think my number bank isnt right, because it appears I have 20 individual songs, each associated to a specific letter that will play everytime that letter is selected, no matter what number I press. The song associated with V is the one that will play if I cycle the motor with no selection being made… I’ll have to find out what songs on the SD card are assigned to which buttons when I can get back in front of a computer and figure out the commonality between them all.

     

    The plot thickens! =p

    #47131

    scudie
    Participant

    I had a similar issue with an SC1 which had no credit unit when I got it.

    After studying the the diagram in the manual I figured that the number signal circuit went through the credit unit ( but not letters ) not sure if this applies  to a 3wa .

    I will have study the manual & connect my 3wa up to a power supply, will try to do it later.

    Cheers Scudie

    #47132

    bobwiley
    Participant

    Thanks Scudie, you’re probably right, it boils down to me spending some quality time trying to peer at that credit switch bank of leafs. Just hope I’m not supposed to have that YY signal switch, but it doesn’t look like I would even have the mounting holes for that on my wallbox, otherwise the box looks complete. Gotta be the credit switches!

     

    Hopefully tomorrow I can tackle it. Ill keep ya’ posted!

    #47133

    scudie
    Participant

    Hi Bobwiley

    I built my self a basic test rig, it’s just a transformer an inline fuse a switch and a couple of 24v lamps. Drawn a diagram of it, have found it useful when trying to find faults. If connected as in the diagram the signal lamp flashes as the wiper sweeps the selector plate. If you have an I phone apparently you can video in slow motion so can count the flashes. If not  you can tell the difference between 1 flash and ten.

    I am not 100% sure about this but think that the switch you refer to was only on Half Dollar models.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Cheers Scudie

     

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